In 2006, John MacArthur wrote an article called Grunge Christianity? It was mostly about “hip” pastors who are trying to be too much like the unbelieving culture. In it, he kind of railed on Mark Driscoll and said that he is leading this hip preacher movement.
Last month, Driscoll posted on several theologians who are a part of the “New Calvinism” movement (which, as Driscoll explains, isn’t so new, but that’s besides the point). He paid a nice tribute to MacArthur as a part of that series.
But yesterday, MacArthur spoke out against Driscoll’s so-called “hip” approach to preaching yet again. This time, the focus was preaching on the Song of Solomon.
MacArthur said:
Apparently the shortest route to relevance in church ministry right now is for the pastor to talk about sex in garishly explicit terms during the Sunday morning service. If he can shock parishioners with crude words and sophomoric humor, so much the better. The defenders of this trend solemnly inform us that without such a strategy it is well-nigh impossible to connect with today’s “culture.”
This was the first paragraph of the article. He went on to say that an exposition of the Song of Solomon “is filled with euphemisms and word pictures. Its whole point is gently, subtly, and elegantly to express the emotional and physical intimacy of marital love—in language suitable for any audience.” In other words, don’t get too specific about sex. Keep it G-Rated.
If MacArthur feels this way, then that’s fine. I have no problem with not getting too specific about sex. I agree that we shouldn’t “talk dirty” during church. But where’s the line? Why can’t we unpack Song of Solomon and understand the Hebrew just like we unpack Romans and know the Greek? People are confused about sex. We need to tell them the truth.
The problem with the article isn’t MacArthur’s opinion. It’s that he practically blamed Mark Driscoll for all of this.
I have listened to Driscoll’s sermons on the Song of Solomon twice and I have never felt anything was over-the-top. There were perhaps some remarks that could be taken as crude, but overall, the sermons are more about marriage and holiness rather than how to have great sex. There is only one sermon that is for “mature audiences,” as the Mars Hill site advertised — but that’s because the passage is explicit: the wife strips for her husband!
Driscoll only goes as far as the text allows. If he seems explicit, it’s because the text is explicit. I wonder if his critics know that Jewish boys weren’t allowed to read the Song of Solomon until they were mature because it might arouse sexual passions? I wonder if they have read these verses as well:
- “My beloved is to me a sachet of myrrh that lies between my breasts” (1:13).
- “As an apple tree among the trees of the forest, so is my beloved among the young men. With great delight I sat in his shadow, and his fruit was sweet to my taste (2:3).
- “How beautiful is your love, my sister, my bride! How much better is your love than wine, and the fragrance of your oils than any spice! Your lips drip nectar, my bride; honey and milk are under your tongue; the fragrance of your garments is like the fragrance of Lebanon” (4:10-11).
- “Eat, friends, drink, and be drunk with love!” (5:1)
These, and many more, seem pretty explicit to me.
Besides all this, let’s remember three things:
- Driscoll preaches in Seattle, where the culture is a wee bit different from Southern California where MacArthur preaches.
- The people who go to Mars Hill would never set a foot in Grace Community (MacArthur’s church). This doesn’t mean that Driscoll is drawing people — God does that. But God uses different people in different contexts to reach different groups. Paul said we need to “be all things to all men that [we] by all means might save some” (1 Cor. 9:22). Let’s be honest: it would be very hard for MacArthur to “be all things” to a grungy, guitar playing, tattooed, 20-something in Seattle. Likewise, it would be very hard for Driscoll to fit in in So Cal with MacArthur’s congregation.
- Our culture is so highly sex-charged that we need to be honest about what God’s design for sex is. What better place for people to learn how to do marriage and sex than at church from their pastor?
Bottom line, MacArthur’s article makes me sad. I’m sad because I want to be a pastor. I hate when pastors pick on other pastors, especially in the cyber world. I hate when pastors pick on other pastors who love Jesus, want to see people saved, and are being used by God to literally transform a city and region that is the most anti-Christian in our country.
If you read the comments on MacArthur’s article, you’ll see people say things like,
“Mark Driscoll is so wrong on so many levels and he needs to immediately repent…In my opinion, John Piper is getting used by Driscoll and the favored line that “Driscoll has repented and is changing and John Piper is mentoring him” is baseless in reality. (Note to John Piper: if Driscoll stays on present course with you providing cover, beware lest your ministry and the glory of God be tarnished.)”
Are you serious? Are we doing this? Are Christians writing this? Are we really taking aim at other Christians? Are we really nagging about a difference in cultural lingo and cultural differences in preaching styles? Are we picking fights because some preacher wants his people — and everyone around the world — to experience God’s plan for sex…and enjoy it?
At the Desiring God National Conference last September, Driscoll said that he loves his critics because he learns from them. That’s something I need to learn. During his message on harsh words in Christianity, he also said, “I think we put the pastors up high in the pulpit so we can get a better aim from the pews. Pray for your shepherds instead of criticizing them.” This is worth remembering because we all know that pastors get shot from all corners of the congregation.
Now, however, bullets seem to be coming from other pulpits, too.
I’m with you.
In a sense, Driscoll is adapting to the people just as Paul did in Athens (Acts 17:28), while using what he deems to be appropriate language to connect cross and culture. Not to mention, some of the dirty language is necessary to describe what’s going on in certain passages. After all, at times the Bible can be a pretty naughty book.
I disagree with you, however, in your attack of MacArthur’s attack (irony?). While I disagree with much of MacArthur’s article and think he was rather immature in the way he presented some of his points against Driscoll, I think its absolutely essential that pastors keep each other in line in such a way.
MacArthur was attacking Driscoll, but he did so with scripture. I might even go as far as saying that if MacArthur thinks Driscoll is preaching in an unbiblical manner then it would be wrong for him to stay quiet and not publicly rebuke Driscoll (2 Timothy 3:16).
I find it strange that you, as a fellow blogger and future fellow pastor, take a strong stance against pastors critiquing (“picking on”) each other. Isn’t the point of a blog (and much of cyberspace) to create an interactive dialogue that strengthens our arguments for true faith?
Furthermore, there’s some irony in you defending Driscoll on the grounds that pastors shouldn’t rail other pastors. Driscoll himself is famous for it. It’s one of the reasons I love him actually. I love it when he lays into health-wealth-prosperity teachers like Joel Olsteen. It’s great! And it’s edifying to the church.
So though I disagree with MacArthur, I must endorse his article on a premise that supports iron sharpening iron and the edification of the church through large scale rebuke and reproof.
Great bit by Matt Chandler at the DG conference in which he completely rails another preacher
First of all, Joel Osteen’s not a pastor. He’s a motivational speaker who uses Jesus to get rich. He has no fruits to prove that he’s a shepherd. He’s a false teacher as far as I’m concerned. So that argument is really week. Pastors like him, and other prosperity teachers, do not teach any “gospel” at all. Driscoll, however, preaches the gospel in every sermon.
I will say that if a pastor deserves it, then yeah, rail on him. But should we rail on a man who loves Jesus, his family, his congregation, and is doing his best, by the Spirit, to help transform a very pagan culture by simply being who he is (because he grew up in Seattle)?
Further, where’s the public lashing out from Piper, Mahaney, Keller, Mohler, Chandler, Grudem, Dever, etc? There is none. I find it odd that the ONLY preacher that has publicly attacked Driscoll is MacArthur.
And I’m not taking a stance against pastors critiquing each other. Of course we should, but is the blogosphere the best place for that? It seems as if MacArthur — and this has been a consistent theme over the years — just takes jabs at Christians who are different than him. If MacArthur has talked to Driscoll, and Mark was like, “Whatever, John, back off,” then sure, I can see this post by MacArthur. But 1) I haven’t heard about a conversation between them and 2) I doubt Driscoll would be so harsh with MacArthur.
And regarding Chandler’s video, he rails on a pastor who deserves it. He pretty much said that the pastor taught, “Nobody wants you if you are screwed up from sexual sin.” That’s not the gospel. The gospel is that Jesus came for the sick and not the healthy. Chandler said, “He is not even teaching the basics of our faith.” I don’t mean to “rail on” you, but that’s a weak argument as well. It doesn’t even compare to this MacArthur-Driscoll issue.
Here’s the problem: Driscoll is very “radical” and “way out in left field” in terms of preaching style. MacArthur isn’t. He’s a traditional guy. Probably one of the most traditional guys. But, just like James said, you don’t hear other major pastors calling out Driscoll. He wouldn’t get invited to conferences if he was not preaching the Gospel in his church.
And if you are going to call another pastor out on something, should it be done in public? I don’t think so. Pretty sure that it should be done 1-on-1.
You’re missing the point.
Chandler lays into that rose guy because he thinks he’s doing a poor job of preaching the Gospel (if he’s even preaching the Gospel, that is). Driscoll and Piper lay into Olsteen because they think he’s doing a poor job of preaching the Gospel (if he’s even preaching the Gospel). Driscoll lays into William Young all the time as well. Likewise, MacArthur is laying into Driscoll because he thinks Driscoll is doing a poor job of preaching the Gospel.
Your whole argument that “those guys aren’t preaching the Gospel” doesn’t hold up. If a pastor is doing anything at all that is hindering the furthering of God’s kindgom then it’s our responsibility to say something.
You seem to think that the Gospel is our shield against criticisms. You’re mistaken. If anything it works the opposite way.
Again, I think of something Matt Chandler taught on the subject. He essentially says that one idea can be taught in a way that is harmful or in a way that is good. In his little bit, he is hypothetically attacking people who are preaching the Gospel, but just nuanced poorly or very in a very silly way.
On another note, I only have to look 12 inches above my computer screen to my book shelf to see Piper’s book The Future of Justification, which outright attacks the ideas of NT Wright. Surely NT Wright is a Gospel preacher, no? (Especially if we’re using your criteria that they must get “invited to conferences to be considered legitimate”).
Also, I find it pretty normal that MacArthur is the only one attacking Driscoll. That’s what he does. He’s an arguer, a watch dog. He is the guy who goes on Larry King and tells him he’s going to hell. He lays out the truth with little regard for how people might feel about him. In this sense, Driscoll and MacArthur are very similar.
The blogosphere is appropriate because MacArthur is railing an entire idea. If MacArthur says something to Driscoll in private and Driscoll says “Yeh, whatever man.” Then everything stays the same and both the Evangelical community and Driscoll’s congregation stay in the dark and don’t even question Driscoll’s methods. Writing an article makes multiple people the audience, including: other pastors like Driscoll but with less renown, people in Driscoll’s congregation who MacArthur thinks should think twice about being there, and people like you who can disagree with MacArthur and create a dialogue about the role of Driscoll’s harsh words.
Maybe MacArthur wrote this article publicly so that you and other future pastors would see it and question Driscoll’s methods before you employ them yourself? It at least makes you think.
Writing an article creates a dialogue. Whereas if they spoke in private we wouldn’t even be discussing this as a community to figure out the best way to preach.
Dialogue is a good thing, isn’t it?
Fair enough. However, anyone who says that Driscoll is hindering the gospel, either is completely blind or has a huge pride problem with how much God is using him. I think that’s fair to say.
Besides all this, what if I think MacArthur’s article is just junk and he’s flat wrong by saying that Driscoll is leading this parade of crudeness? As I said, I’ve listened to the sermons and there’s only one that’s for “mature audiences” and I think Driscoll gives some great insights into male and female sexuality in marriage. Most of them, however, are about how to biblical do the marriage relationship
I’m with ya man. I think Driscoll is relatively justified in his usage of graphic sexual language. If I had to pick a side between Driscoll and Mc on this one, I’d go Driscoll.
But since we’re all depraved sinner with corrupt hearts, we need to keep an open forum and a theological checks-and-balances system (so to speak) on what our evangelical leaders are teaching and how they’re teaching it.
If we don’t, they might turn into Joel Olsteen, John Shelby Spong or something even worse.
Agree to agree on that one. Do you have blog?
I do actually.
http://blinkministries.org/
I’m glad you asked because a few posts down on the main page I actually have a concept that I think I stole from you–the list of reasons I love my father.
Well, Mr. MacArthur, if you ever read these things I just want you to know as a Mars Hill Churchgoer and soon member that Pastor Mark has from the pulpit said that we need to not be against people like you. We love you and if you love God than we love what you are doing in your church. Too bad you can’t show the same love back. Ours is a cursed state, hence the grunge. If you have ever spent any extended time in Washington state you would know that it is a dark depressing place that fluffy bunny Christianity just will never fly. As a former goth trust me…I would never listen to a pharisee or someone who is too pompous to speak of what the Bible says, even the uncomfortable or “dirty” parts. There are 66 books in the Bible. Not 65 + that one that’s unspeakable”Song of Solomon” God put it in there on purpose…if your scared of that…Take that up with God. I can’t help but think this attack on a fellow Christian isn’t financially directed…Too many preachers will speak out against fellow preachers because their flock is smaller or their Bible doesn’t sell as many copies http://www.eatjesus.com/study-bibles/study-bibles/ (btw for those of you who don’t know ESV is highly recommended by Driscoll) just a refresher course…To envy…to want what someone else has. Let Driscoll be effective to the thousands that would avoid church altogether otherwise…or call him on his heresy. If he speaks things that are not true MAKE HIM AWARE OF IT! Aside of his apparent gruff exterior I also sense a very humble man. God is doing great things in Washington and more directly in my families life. I am learning to be a better husband and father. Evangelize to you flock MacArthur and let Driscoll do the same without your trying to slander him. We need solid teaching here…now we have it.
Whatever happened to Matthew 18 peacemaking? Does the entire Internet constitute “The Church” that Jesus wants us to take the issue up with now in this world of social networking? How many souls will never enter heaven because they were privy to these blogs and posts and say “I never want to be a Christian because all they do is hate each other.” Dialog is fine but needs to be done in private. People like John MacArthur and Phil Johnson who work for organizations called “Grace To You” need to head back to school to learn what grace really is. Sharpening iron with your fellow pastors can easily be done in private. God is the witness that will judge. Not the entire world.
Doug,
Do you think MacArthur should individually address Driscoll, Driscoll’s congregation, Matt Chandler, plus dozens of others to tell them they are lewd in their sex language?
Not to mention, I would have never thought as much about the issue had it not been a public forum… (And I’m talking about Male-Enhancement pills in the talk I’m giving this Saturday).
Like I said previously… MacArthur is going after Driscoll; but he’s also speaking against a large-scale technique he see’s used in the church right now.
You know what, Doug has a point with the question: “Does the entire Internet constitute “The Church” that Jesus wants us to take the issue up with now in this world of social networking?”
Piper doesn’t address this situation, or the blogosphere in sermon below, but he does say that when Jesus talks about Matthew 18:15-20 he is implying local church bodies.
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/BySeries/85/2989_How_Important_Is_Church_Membership/
Interesting stuff to consider. Food for thought.
All you have to do is read Matthew 18 and see Macarthur is wrong. He should have called him first to hear his side of things and possibly still disagree but do it without smearing him in public. Macarthur is a bully in all his books and blogs. What is funny, is I bet you that Driscoll believe in 98% of the same theology Macarthur does. Piper said Driscoll is dead on in his interpretation. So pretty much all this is is an attempt for an outgoing pastor to put down the new preachers. The Bible is full of explicit language, but were not supposed to talk about that right? WRONG!! That is one of the greatest arguments for the Bible is that it didn’t paint a fluffy picture and its not irrelevant. It leaves in messed up people with real life sexual, wrathful, sinful problems. Driscoll baptized 400 people on Easter! Macarthur forgot to comment on that. All this crap does is fuel the fire for unbelievers because why the heck would they want what we have when we can’t even disagree cordially.
VERY RELEVANT!
JOHN PIPER ON MARK DRISCOLL SERMON JAM
Saddly nobody here is right
Prov 6:16
16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren
and he that soweth discord among brethren
and he that soweth discord among brethren
and he that soweth discord among brethren
and he that soweth discord among brethren
and he that soweth discord among brethren
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren
KJV